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ID: 76374 Paper Type: Pages: 12 Topic: comparative analysis through dialogue between Plato and Confucius Citation Style: MLA Bibliography: 3 Due: 2007-05-01 16:00:00 Worth: $96.00

Info: The guide-lines will be faxed tommorrow 4/24/07, at least 3 sources must be used for citation. Two of which must be from the Plato section (pages 1-113, mainsly just the Meno, Apology, and parts of the Republic)of "Classics of Western Philosophy" sixth edition by Steven M. Cahn (ISBN-0- 87220-637-8) and chapters 1 (Confucianism) and chapter 4 (Plato) of "Ten Theories of Human Nature" fourth edition by Leslie Stevenson and David L. Haberman (ISBN-0-19-516974-3). These are very common texts, please let me know if there is a problem. I can be called at 516-713-5649. I can fax the second book mentioned but the other one is a very standard philosophy text. It is alot of pages, so please let me know if I need to fax it.

Plato & Confucius Dialogue

Plato: Human nature is something that is not fully understood. There is more to human nature than the influence of the Gods (Stevenson & Haberman 69). Tell me why do people do wrong? Confucius: People surely do not intend to do wrong. Plato: But that does not answer the question why people do wrong? If people are good, why do they do things that are immoral? Is it a person who does wrong? Confucius: A man is responsible for his own actions, but even if a man does wrong, it does not mean he intends to do so. Plato: Well then how is it possible for a man who intends to do good to do wrong? People have the ability to reason and thus to do what is right (Stevenson & Haberman 69). It is innately human to have the ability to reason. Confucius: I do not know for I only transmit from the heavens. I am not a heavenly being myself. But that does not mean it is not in man's power to know heaven. Plato: I think therefore then that all things that are done wrong are those that are done in ignorance; people desire what is best. Confucius: Yes, I think so, we live in a moral world (Stevenson & Haberman 11). There is virtue everywhere, and that virtue comes from heaven and exists in me (Stevenson & Haberman 11). Therefore, it cannot be ignorance then in which man does wrong, but it has to be something else. Man cannot be ignorant to what is moral and right. Plato: I will agree with that, that nobody wants what is bad (Cahn 7). I have proven that people want to be good. Confucius: So we agree then than that morality and good are predominant in the world? If the heavens touch everything and you have shown that nobody wants to be bad, then the world should be a perfectly moral place. Plato: But there are questions to what is this virtue of which we speak. No one wants what is bad, but people want what is good and the acquiring of things that are good can be in the acquiring of goods through vanity and this cannot be good (Cahn 7). Confucius: Then how do you determine what is good? If wanting good, and being able to reason is not enough to make man good, then what is your answer? Is it not that heaven exists everywhere? Plato: Well, God does exist everywhere; God is complete and absolute reason (Stevenson & Haberman 11). But there exists something outside of the real world we perceive everyday; something that is greater than the physical realties we encounter on a daily basis. This is because there are unchanging forms that human beings are not aware of, things that exist outside of human conception and only through the use of forms can we come to know these things that exist. Confucius: How cans a human being, if touched by the heavens, not be able to understand something? Plato: Well, it is possible for people to come to understand the greater knowledge that is out there. It is through reason and education, because the senses can be fooled, but through reason humans can attain an improved understanding (Stevenson & Haberman 73). Confucius: Then we agree that there is a greater understanding that man can attain through learning from powers greater than the human senses. Every person, from the emperor and down must live his or her life as though there is a heaven and in tune with the greater understanding offered by the divine (Stevenson & Haberman 11). I strive for virtue; but that virtue is not my own, it is a gift from the heavens. Plato: Yes it seems that we do agree in the power of human's to achieve more through some form of divine intervention, or education, or reason, as there is morality for humans to find in the world. Confucius: But there is also destiny (Stevenson & Haberman 12). Plato: What do you mean destiny? Destiny as it is in man's destiny to understand the world in which he lives? Surely it is our destiny to use reason to reach new levels of intellectual achievement and ultimately to achieve a greater sense and purpose for the moral good. Confucius: This destiny is a destiny in which one's place in life is determined by forces that are greater than human conception. This destiny is beyond human comprehension; we can understand heaven but we cannot always understand our destiny (Stevenson & Haberman 12). Plato: I agree there is a higher form that we do not understand. We live in a shadow and there are greater shadows out there that are beyond humans. Confucius: So then do you believe in a destiny that we cannot understand? Plato: I believe in something out of human comprehension, but perhaps I have more faith in a person's ability to find a deeper level to our existence. Confucius: I do not doubt man's ability. Do not get me wrong. I believe that man is capable of achieving something greater and something good. It is human nature to find the power of the heavens and thus humans are capable of living on a level that transcends the physical existence (Stevenson & Haberman 12). Plato: It appears then we are both optimistic about the nature and power of human mind. Confucius: Yes according to our logic there does in fact exist a spark within the human soul that allows it to reach to something greater that what our senses physically recognize to be the reality. Plato: Yes, and I agree that this notion of virtue transcends gender, age, or other physical and social factors that exist in our life. It seems that there does exist something in the human existence that allows us to find virtue. Confucius: Yes that is true, yet to truly realize the morality of heaven requires a gift so great that I can never attain it nor will I ever realize it as well (Stevenson & Haberman 13). It is to be a Sage, and any person has the potential to be a stage, but it is almost impossible to become one. I doubt I will ever meet one. This means that this virtue that is special in people is not fully realized (Stevenson & Haberman 13). Plato: All right, so the difficulty of attaining divine moral enlightenment is difficult, I understand that, but what about virtue? Confucius: We are all the same. I agree with you. People become different over time. But that does not change the fact that the very nature of people is that they are similar. In that way I can agree with you. Plato: Yes but you must surely recognize the importance of knowledge (Cahn 17)? For without knowledge opinion can be of little use. Knowledge is the key to finding virtue and thus attaining the state of enlightenment that seems so hard to find. Confucius: Yes humans must strive to reach their moral ground. Plato: But you seem to be avoiding the subject- the crux of the matter. Yes humans have the ability to reason and become virtuous, and yes there is another level to our existence that purely physical. We both agree with that. But what do you think about man? Do you believe man to be good or bad? Confucius: That is something I cannot answer. Plato: What do you mean you cannot answer? You do not have an idea on the fundamental nature of man? Confucius: Well man is uniform.... (Stevenson & Haberman 14) Plato: Yes so all men are the same, or you claim. I agree all people are special. But are they good or bad? Confucius: I can't answer that. I am not the divine but only a transmitter. Plato: But if people have the ability to make a moral reasoning decision that is beyond the physical and that is good then how can people not be good? Confucius: It is up to people to study, and that is how people can become different, and that is how people can become good. Plato: Ok then maybe it does not matter if people are inherently good or bad, but how does all this matter into the things in life that matter? Confucius: But this does matter because the way people act towards each other- the way people govern or treat others with selfishness is what matters in this world. Plato: But how can virtue then be taught if people are selfish, or dictatorial leaders. Confucius: What do you mean? I thought we agreed that people can become virtuous and that people can be in touch with heaven. Plato: So are you saying people are good? Confucius: No, I did not say that. What are you saying? Plato: That virtue is not something we can find, and it is not something that is innate. It is something that is given (Cahn 19). Confucius: Given by who? Plato: Given by what you call the heavens, given by God to the virtuous. Virtue is therefore not innate or not learned but something that the truly blessed possess. Confucius: I think this is wear we must disagree. Plato: Yes it appears so as you believe that anybody has the capacity to be a Sage, or to have great wisdom and virtue. Confucius: Yes and you believe only the few. Plato: Yes but we both believe that virtue exists. Confucius: Yes there is something special in people. Plato: And there is a greater good. Confucius: But back to your original question of what this means. Plato: Does it mean that people live a life of morality or immorality? Confucius: It means that people who live a life for profit are living a life of immorality. This notion of salary is that people who seek to acquire goods for personal gain are immoral (Stevenson & Haberman 13). Seeking profit is immoral. Therefore, people should base their moral compass not on seeking profit but instead on doing what is good and morally correct. Plato: Of course I agree with you that seeking profit is not the virtuous course of action, but then it must be defined what in fact the moral action is. Confucius: The answer is simple; it requires a respect for all others. Plato: And all people are capable of this respect? Confucius: Yes all people are capable to have the utmost respect for human beings. There is no other alternative or course of moral action. To put profit, power, selfishness, or any other motive of this type above the condition of another human is immoral. Plato: So if one seeks morality they must seek a virtue that treats other people better? Where can one find such virtue if a person does not have such strong moral fiber. Confucius: It is transmitted through heaven. If a stable burns, it is not important whether the stable burned or if the valuable horses were spared- it is the human life that hopefully was spared through the fire. The human is most important. Plato: So what if someone cares more for the horses than the other humans? Is this person guilty of wrong doing? Confucius: Yes. Plato: But how can a person make a wrong moral mistake? Confucius: I have just shown how a person can have a moral lapse- through caring for profit. Plato: Yes, but there exists an inner harmony in people that you have not realized. You refused to admit whether man is good or bad. Confucius: Yes go on then is man good or bad? Plato: Man does not willingly do something that he or she believes to be wrong (Stevenson & Haberman 76). Confucius: How can man not? There are surely countless times when a man behaves selfishness, for his own motives, for profit which I have demonstrated to be immoral actions. This means that man is capable of immoral actions. Plato: There is a critical factor you are overlooking and this will take some explaining. It is that there are not two parts to the soul, but three. There is the appetite and there is reason; these are two of the parts of the human being that try to reason between what someone wants and want reason tells someone he or she should do (Stevenson & Haberman 77). Confucius: Well, a truly moral action would not need to reason because the divinely inspired action is perfect. It is what does not benefit from profit; it is what helps people and what respects people. Plato: Let me continue. You have argued against the two part soul, but I have not explained the third part and the third part is the spirit. Confucius: How can there be a spirit that determines human action? There is the mind and the mind makes its decisions based upon what is beneficial to the human condition and what is harmful for the human condition. Plato: Spirit is something distinct from reason (Stevenson & Haberman 77). Spirit is the disgust or desire that is innate in all people. Confucius: How does this spirit differ from reason? Plato: It is simple. Let us look at your horse example. The spirit will surely wonder whether the horses survived the fire, or be concerned of the lost profit from losing a structure to a fire. The spirit is thus differentiated from reason. Reason would look at the situation from perhaps your perspective. But there is an inherent inflammation in the heart and in the soul and this spirit is a passion that differs from reason. Yet it is not appetite either. Spirit may coincide with reason, but it is not the same (Stevenson & Haberman 77). Confucius: So does that mean that people are all alone then with their three parts to their sole? Plato: Most certainly not! People are social beings. Confucius: So, you do agree with me then, that people's morality is based upon their relationships with others. Plato: Well, I mean that people need other people. People need other people for survival, for companionship, for social interaction (Stevenson & Haberman 79). Confucius: So then treating other people to the utmost is of greatest importance? As I said, the greatest moral course of action is outside of one's selfish interests. Plato: But while you maintain that people are the same, they are in fact different? Confucius: How can they be different? There is one moral action and that is compassion and love for others which one can acquire through knowledge of heaven. Plato: But people are different. If people are composed of three different elements, than within each person the elements create a person that is unique. People should have a harmonious level with reason as the strongest element. But this is not always the case (Stevenson & Haberman 79). Confucius: The most important element is not reason, but benevolence (Stevenson & Haberman 15). How can reason be more important than the direct action that creates the highest level or morality attainable? Plato: It seems that you see people as equals capable of understanding morality and virtue if they allow themselves to be reached in such a way as to become benevolent. Confucius: That is correct maybe you now coming to understand the very nature of morality and the ultimate goal of human interaction. Plato: I have to disagree, because, I do not believe that each person has equal levels of the three elements. Confucius: If people then do not have adequate levels of morality or reason..... Plato: It is not an if; some people are blessed with more reason than others. That is how some people can become more virtuous than others. And it is these with a greater sense of reason that are destined to have a leading role in society (Stevenson & Haberman 79). Even as you accept destiny, you do not account for creating it. This model allows for morality, destiny, and explains the differences between people. This means people have their own roles in society based upon their destiny, or the interaction of the three elements in their souls. Confucius: But people's lives and social interaction are defined by the treatment of others with benevolence. Plato: At least we agree on the role of social interaction. Confucius: Yes, but it seems that to you social interaction is defined outside a person's own moral values. Plato: No, I believe that social interaction or the role of the individual in society should be based on their level of reason. This means there should be a system in society- a society that trumps democracy, autocracy, and all other forms. It is a perfect society and the problems I have seen within society and those that have existed in society throughout history can be fixed. Confucius: And how do you plan on fixing that? Plato: By creating a society of complete justice and virtue which takes into account our psychological makeup and the three elements to the soul (Stevenson & Haberman 80). Confucius: Your idea relies on the interaction between people and society and the elements of the soul. But this overlooks the simplicity of human existence and human participation in society. Plato: What is that? I believe it is clear that reason and appetite and spirit are different elements of the soul. Confucius: There exists a perfection that any can find. It is a perfection in which peace and security are brought to all people (Stevenson & Haberman 16). Plato: How is it possible for people, who are inherently influenced by passion to act with only the intention to create peace and security? Confucius: The answer to that question is also the answer for the greatest level of morality. One must do what is right because it is the right thing to do and do it for no motive or no profit (Stevenson & Haberman 16). Ultimately, the best course of action is the action that is of the greatest morality. The ills in society exist because people do not act with this important benevolence. You attempt to find a government that covers up the root of the problem but does not solve the problem. The problem within society lies in the heart of each individual. You find flaws in so many forms of government because the human beings are flawed. Plato: No, I have determined a society that is based on classes dependent on people's ability to reason. This will solve the problem. Confucius: But that means that people are not capable of reason. Plato: Society has problems because people are given the opportunity to use their skills to reason when they lack the necessary elements. Confucius: But your ideas become meaningless if considering my view of morality and what I consider to be utmost importance. If people follow the teachings that have been transmitted to me by heaven the three elements do not matter, the form of government does not matter. If people act without self-interest and with the interest solely for other humans, the problems that exist in society and the ills you seek to correct will disappear. Plato: You have it wrong. I believe in justice and virtue in society. I just have a better understanding of people and with this understanding it is possible to correct society. Your ideals are impossible in practice. Confucius: I have not met a Sage yet, but I have not ruled out the possibility. Plato: So you expect a society to be one of all Sages? Confucius: No, but I expect people to improve their level of self- discipline and act with a greater sense of morality. People need to be taught to act well; names need to be rectified. People need to study and dedicate their lives to morality (Stevenson & Haberman 21). It does not come so easy. Plato: I am well aware it does not come so easy. That is why in my Republic I have outlined a society which maximizes justice and virtue and explained how other forms of government fail to realize man's potential. To realize potential, man must realize himself to be composed of three elements. Reason cannot always be taught. It is not always a learned experience. Yes, people can learn from things greater than physical existence, but people are similar and different. Confucius: Perhaps, to me people are more similar than different. Plato: And to me, people more different than similar. Maybe not different, but people exist in different classes. Confucius: If a person is capable of the highest level of morality than people are the same. Plato: Is everyone capable? What has history shown? Confucius: History has shown people have not acted with morality as they should have. History has shown people have acted for profit when this is not what people should do. Plato: So then we agree that history needs to be corrected? Confucius: I think history cannot be corrected, but our understanding of history can be fixed to improve the future. Plato: So it seems that the harmony and stability of society is aimed for a better future, a greater sense of morality among people, and a better life and existence between individuals and society. Confucius: Yes we agree on that. But can you deny that if everyone acted as I suggest they act the world would not be corrected? Plato: I cannot answer that question because it is not possible. The spirit is too strong. Confucius: It will take discipline to overcome the spirit that is too strong. Plato: Let us hope that everyone then is capable of such discipline.